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Topic : Ford over beck/duck pond blocked ?

old_miner
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15/07/2014 : 20:51:02      reply with quote


What is the construction that has blocked off the ford across the beck/duck pond? Well for powered 4 wheelers, powered two wheelers and animals should be OK.

Cannot remember seeing any information about it.
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hillbilly
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15/07/2014 : 21:24:44      reply with quote


this post has been edited 1 time(s)

When i was a kid my farther used to drive up st john street in his ford popular and turn in to the beck by tunicliffs coal yard by the side of the cottages and drive through the beck up a slight incline on the other side and out on to the road and off up the town no problem but over the years it has been made steeper and narrower to prevent limited access
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grandad
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16/07/2014 : 11:11:38      reply with quote


Possibly something to do with the flood gate that is about to be installed to stop flooding down St Johns St.
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Peter
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16/07/2014 : 13:09:57      reply with quote


The flood protection gates for Silsden Beck / St John's St.



NOTE: The cobbled ramp on this side of the beck was/is only half of the open area.

For more pictures see
news.silsden.net/archives/1214

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thanet
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16/07/2014 : 16:27:21      reply with quote


An eye sore for how many times a year we have flooding i ask
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Peter
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16/07/2014 : 16:45:59      reply with quote


quote
posted by thanet
An eye sore for how many times a year we have flooding i ask
So you don't live in St John's Street?

It flooded in 1970, 1994, 1985, 1998, 2000, 2002(x2), 2008

For some pictures of what it can be like:
www.silsden.net/pictures/index.htm

It's not finished yet, there has to be some stonework and woodwork added to it. Perhaps judgement should be reserved until it's finished. happy :)
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ginjo
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16/07/2014 : 19:02:52      reply with quote


are they putting gates on the other side as well
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hillbilly
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16/07/2014 : 19:06:10      reply with quote


Toll gates for the yorkshire air ambulance with a bit of luck
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grandad
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16/07/2014 : 19:36:39      reply with quote


I do not believe so, because the Kirkgate side is higher and although it as flooded it is a far more rare event.
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ginjo
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16/07/2014 : 20:43:17      reply with quote


if the water is stopped from flooding john street will it not mean that water is more likely to flood the main street? just a thought, the water will go somewhere else
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Mickyfinn
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17/07/2014 : 10:08:42      reply with quote


In my opinion this floodgate is ill-conceived. By preventind the natural run-off of flood water down St.John's Street there will be a consequent rise in the level of water contained within the beck & this will almost certainly result in floodwater overflowing the ford & weeping willows areas on the other side of the beck. It will also raise the level of floodwater further down the beck & could overflow the retaing wall of properties further down St.John's Street. Also, the retaining wall just below this floodgate leaks like a sieve in flood conditions & needs to be effectively sealed. St;John's Street will still be flooded in extreme weather conditions as surface water runs of the playing fields, comes down Mitchell Lane & continues on down St.John's Street because the storm drain at the bottom of Mitchell Lane cannot cope with the volume of water. As an aside I wonder whether the ford has protected status & whether the ford is still a legal right of way.
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hermione fraggle
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17/07/2014 : 10:16:29      reply with quote


this post has been edited 1 time(s)

Before you all start speculating about what may and may not happen all works including the removal of some of the tones washed down by heavy rains have been approved by a representative from the Enviroment Agency. This project has been going on for quite a while. You can see more about it here theenvironmentalgroup.silsden.net/
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Mickyfinn
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17/07/2014 : 12:05:26      reply with quote


In my opinion 'Hermione fraggle' I have every right to speculate about what may happen when this floodgate is closed in flood conditions. As a St.John's Street resident of over 20 years whose property backs onto the beck I feel I have the right to air my views on this topic. Furthermore, I feel it would have been prudent of the Environment Agency & the Silsden Environmental Group to have obtained the views of those residents of the street most directly affected by potential flooding. The run-off of floodwater down St.John's Street from the ford & Mitchell Lane has never been a serious problem. Certainly, flood waters have, on occasion, backed up the street but this was caused by blocked drains at the Howden Road junction. My immediate concern is the rising levels of floodwater in the beck, caused by the floodgate preventing run-off, which could see my retaining wall breached, in the worst case floodwater peaked at just 9in.from the top of my wall, I am, therefore, naturally concerned, as are my neighbours.
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Corky Yorky
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17/07/2014 : 19:49:44      reply with quote


Hmm Is MickyFinn right?

Have not the citizens of St John St and others been asked about this proposal?
After all it is them that will be affected.
It does seem sense to have also a gate on the other side.

Has a proper survey been conducted by a flood consultant to assess what is the best resolution or is this just another namby pamby scheme thrust forward by a minority.
I have looked at the photos Peter has pointed us to and they do not show any flooding to St John St. Is this because St John St does not flood as much as the High St?

It appears to me to be a ridiculously expensive scheme. Look at all that steel?
If it is that neccesary then It would have been far easier and less costly to have just walled across the ford, on both sides. This would not only have helped with preventing flooding but also keep out the dogs from frightening the ducks. The slope to the ford on the High St side is also very dangerous, i have seen many slip down it.

(D)uck Forward to your comments?
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gazzer
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17/07/2014 : 20:39:17      reply with quote


quote
posted by hermione fraggle
Before you all start speculating about what may and may not happen all works including the removal of some of the tones washed down by heavy rains have been approved by a representative from the Enviroment Agency. This project has been going on for quite a while. You can see more about it here theenvironmentalgroup.silsden.net/
Seems a sensible idea the only worry saying the Environment agency have approved it.They are far from experts, for instance the stopped dredging rivers on the Somerset levels which didnt go too well
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ginjo
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17/07/2014 : 20:42:01      reply with quote


"the project has been going on for quite a while" this is the first time I have heard about it and by the sound of it I am not the only one.Very surprised that there has not been more information put out about this
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Peter
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17/07/2014 : 21:55:29      reply with quote


You may like to look at these pictures before you suggest a barrier on the Kirkgate side.

news.silsden.net/archives/1295

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Corky Yorky
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18/07/2014 : 09:28:03      reply with quote


this post has been edited 1 time(s)

Peter

Your point is wild and speculative?
I have already seen these pictures, and yes the pictures show flooding onto the High St, being mostly protected by some sand bags. If sand bags are needed when it floods, then clearly another barrier is needed on the other side. If it be a bit higher along its length, so be it. We must be active in protecting our Town, but only in the right way.

A flood protection survey, should have been undertaken for the whole beck, particularly at the pond. This would have been the best use of money, before any scheme is implemented. It is possible that this new gate could have adverse affects!

Another point is yes the new barrier to the other side may be Environment Agency ‘Approved’, but A simple wall can be ‘Approved’ and it doesnt mean it is the complete answer to the flooding problem.
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Peter
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18/07/2014 : 10:33:00      reply with quote


quote
posted by CorkyYorky
Peter

Your point is wild and speculative?
CorkyYorky, your statement is a little harsh isn't it?

The old pictures (and recent flood pictures showing the flood levels) I posted on news.silsden.net was just to point out over the years the periphery of Stakes Beck has changed. The pictures show the beck has always flooded and the area used to be enclosed by high walls with defined openings for the ford. In the event of a flood it would have been easy to close off these openings. These days, with the walls removed, we see Stakes Beck as an amenity and somewhere to feed and watch ducks.

Also, the opening on the St Johns side of the beck IS at a lower level to the Kirkgate side.

Mickyfinn, I not sure if you are suggesting it's better for the floodwater to come in the front of your property, rather than the back. Are you relying on the floodwater from Stakes Beck to run down St John St and into a drain, hopefully not blocked?

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Corky Yorky
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18/07/2014 : 12:54:40      reply with quote


Peter

No I don’t think my statement is harsh at all.
You did not explain yourself!

I have explained, what should have been the proper course of action, ensuring that Silsden is protected for the future and that potentially Tax payers money isn’t wasted. Maybe you should say something about this positive statement?

I fail to see how it still cannot be an amenity and a place to feed/watch ducks, walled or otherwise. No one has said it can’t be.
Again Peter you have not explained yourself, just a wild statement. It is your opinion only so why use the word “we”?

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thanet
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28/07/2014 : 09:21:31      reply with quote


its just an eye sore at the end of the day to be used how many times a year and what will happen to the water it is stopping i ask.
Who is paying for this at the end of the day us local folk !!!!!!!!!!!
solid wood flooring

hat
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28/07/2014 : 11:28:51      reply with quote


quote
posted by CorkyYorky

It appears to me to be a ridiculously expensive scheme. Look at all that steel?
If it is that neccesary then It would have been far easier and less costly to have just walled across the ford, on both sides. This would not only have helped with preventing flooding but also keep out the dogs from frightening the ducks. The slope to the ford on the High St side is also very dangerous, i have seen many slip down it.

(D)uck Forward to your comments?
that was my thought also. Why go to all this expense (& it will be hugely expensive) when you could just wall across the redundant ford entrances?

also who is going to be responsible for operating a gate and the cost of maintenance? strange that there has been nothing in the published town council minutes on this or any planning notification on the bradford council website
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Bee2771
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29/07/2014 : 06:09:59      reply with quote


I must agree, whoever decided to put monstrous steel construction on an small picturesque duck pond/beck in the middle of a town needs a sacking! I have sat down there and listened to visitors to the town say how lovely and tranquil it is....Now what are they going to say, Nice pond...shame about the big metal thingy at the other side.
According to records since 1950 the beck has flooded no more that 9 times, for all those who need help that's once every 7.1 years, does that really warrant this contraption and besides the sandbags used every 7 years have always managed to sort things out.
For gods sake why not just build the wall across! and save us all the embarrassment of people asking what the hell it is.
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Dodzi
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29/07/2014 : 10:36:53      reply with quote


Whoever originally reduced the gap on that side put paid to a right of way as now a vehicle can't get though anyway
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Peter
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29/07/2014 : 11:09:41      reply with quote


Wait until it's finished happy :) Much of the steelwork will be hidden behind stone work.

As for the size of the causeway, this will be restored to its full width by removing the ugly wall that Bradford built over half of the cobbles. Look carefully at the pictures and you will see the wall (where the bin is) is standing on the cobbled causeway.

It seems to me everyone has an opinion on this and the Silsden Council are damned if they do and damned if they don't. The water has to be better in the beck than running down the road and potentially into residents houses. We tend to forget, or be unaware, how high the water can get in the beck and how damaging water can be once it gets into your house.

Wait until the project is finished before passing judgement.
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ginjo
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29/07/2014 : 11:52:37      reply with quote


would it not have been better for each householder who might be affected once in a bluemoon to buy a flood gate to fit over their door when there is a risk of flood, I think you can even get grants for these or maybe even get them free, they show them all the time on tv in areas where flooding can occur.I think the point with this is that no one appears to have been consulted, and did the council approve this, did they need planning permission, a right of way has been changed.No one form the council seems to be commenting on here
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Mickyfinn
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29/07/2014 : 13:56:29      reply with quote


Having measured the height of the floodgate above the level of the ford I have concluded there could be a consequent rise of at least 3 feet in floodwater now being contained within the Stakes & this will inevitably result in Kirkgate being inundated. This considerable rise in floodwater at the Stakes will also result in breached retaining walls to properties further down the beck & will cause floodwater to backup the two branches of the beck. At present in flood conditions water is able to run-off & flow down St.John's Street where streetside drains can carry it away. In my opinion the storm drain at the bottom of Mitchell Lane is inadequate for the purpose it was intended for & needs upgrading & ideally another storm drain should be installed at the Howden Road/St.John's Street junction & connected to the existing storm drain.
Why were St.John's Street residents not consulted & why were they not advised what to do to prevent flooding of their properties. Lastly, was there any project exercise done & the proposal published in the public domain? And, was there any planning application made, was it approved, and, if so, by whom?
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grandad
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29/07/2014 : 16:23:32      reply with quote


quote
posted by Mickyfinn
Having measured the height of the floodgate above the level of the ford I have concluded there could be a consequent rise of at least 3 feet in floodwater now being contained within the Stakes & this will inevitably result in Kirkgate being inundated. This considerable rise in floodwater at the Stakes will also result in breached retaining walls to properties further down the beck & will cause floodwater to backup the two branches of the beck. At present in flood conditions water is able to run-off & flow down St.John's Street where streetside drains can carry it away. In my opinion the storm drain at the bottom of Mitchell Lane is inadequate for the purpose it was intended for & needs upgrading & ideally another storm drain should be installed at the Howden Road/St.John's Street junction & connected to the existing storm drain.
Why were St.John's Street residents not consulted & why were they not advised what to do to prevent flooding of their properties. Lastly, was there any project exercise done & the proposal published in the public domain? And, was there any planning application made, was it approved, and, if so, by whom?
Where did you get your hydrology doctorate?
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Mickyfinn
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29/07/2014 : 16:53:21      reply with quote


Actually 'grandad' my qualifications are BSc(Hons), BA(Hons), MA(distinction), Master Mariner. I just look with my eyes & I don't like what I see. If you put a plug in a bath the water rises up & if there is no overflow near the top the bath will overflow.
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Pennypeck
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29/07/2014 : 22:04:40      reply with quote


quote
No one from the council seems to be commenting on here
Perhaps a bit rich to say the above when onsite Councillor Mike O'Dwyer features in the photo towards the top of the same thread and in many of the additional photos (white shirt).

I'm voting with Peter on this one and waiting for project completion before commenting.
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Bee2771
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30/07/2014 : 06:20:48      reply with quote


OK so now for the main question that I am sure everyone is dying to know, I know I am....From the initial design to the completed project so (that will be used every 7 years or so) Quoting the FOIA what's the cost of this monstrosity and how was this cost justified on a small beck?

Also I would be interested to hear what the consultation process was.
Knowing the councils round here, a risk assessment would have been completed. For all those who are not familiar to these, a risk assessment is Likelihood measured against severity of harm....Now I don't claim to be an expert on water but I would say that every 7 years could be classed at "very unlikely" divided by past cost/damage which would be "minor" the risk would come out as " No immediate action required - but monitor"
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grandad
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30/07/2014 : 09:08:32      reply with quote


quote
posted by Mickyfinn
Actually 'grandad' my qualifications are BSc(Hons), BA(Hons), MA(distinction), Master Mariner. I just look with my eyes & I don't like what I see. If you put a plug in a bath the water rises up & if there is no overflow near the top the bath will overflow.
I also look with my eyes.
If the water level rises the pressure will increase, therefore the water will be forced over the weir faster and will not just overflow onto Kirkgate.
Wait until it is finished before you complain about this, if it stops the homes in St Johns St being flooded then it works.
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grandad
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30/07/2014 : 09:12:39      reply with quote


Just another thought, if this flooding problem had taken place south of Watford Gap then it would have been a case of money is no object, and we up north would have had to pay for it.
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tetleydrinker
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30/07/2014 : 14:57:06      reply with quote


I'll bite the bullet on this on and ask Bradford Met Planning department if all the necessary requirements for the construction of this have been put in place.

I'll let you know the outcome of my Email
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Mickyfinn
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30/07/2014 : 19:25:58      reply with quote


Valid point 'grandad', of course floodwater will pass over the weir, but what you don't admit is that this will be at a higher level than ever seen before. And it is that scenario that is of great concern to me & my neighbours. As the floodwater passes over & down the weir it enters a narrow stretch of the beck behind houses in St.Johns Street & this floodwater will almost certainly be at a higher level than ever seen before. In previous floods the retaining walls of these properties have been breached with some minimal flooding but now with a floodgate in position we anticipate that we will get quite catastrophic conditions & a high risk of damage. Maybe you have never heard or seen the huge boulders that come down the beck, it is quite frightening to hear them as they crash by. As for our frontages onto St.Johns Street, in my 20 years as a resident of this street I am not aware of any house ever been flooded. The only time that floodwater has got under front doors at the bottom of the street was when vehicles drove too fast through floodwater, creating waves which made water enter under front doors of properties. The most serious risk to properties in St.Johns Street is not from the street but is most certainly from the beck itself.
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Bee2771
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31/07/2014 : 06:47:02      reply with quote


quote
posted by Mickyfinn
Valid point 'grandad', of course floodwater will pass over the weir, but what you don't admit is that this will be at a higher level than ever seen before. And it is that scenario that is of great concern to me & my neighbours. As the floodwater passes over & down the weir it enters a narrow stretch of the beck behind houses in St.Johns Street & this floodwater will almost certainly be at a higher level than ever seen before. In previous floods the retaining walls of these properties have been breached with some minimal flooding but now with a floodgate in position we anticipate that we will get quite catastrophic conditions & a high risk of damage. Maybe you have never heard or seen the huge boulders that come down the beck, it is quite frightening to hear them as they crash by. As for our frontages onto St.Johns Street, in my 20 years as a resident of this street I am not aware of any house ever been flooded. The only time that floodwater has got under front doors at the bottom of the street was when vehicles drove too fast through floodwater, creating waves which made water enter under front doors of properties. The most serious risk to properties in St.Johns Street is not from the street but is most certainly from the beck itself.
Well there you go peeps, A resident of St John's street cannot be wrong, they have lived it & seen it and cannot see any good in this project.
And for all those who keep saying "wait until its finished" It's not all about the aesthetics....its more a case of, Is it required!. By the sounds of it the only people who want this are the ones who thought up the stupid idea in the first place,
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