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Topic : Deluge of protests for Silsden flood barrier

Peter
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21/08/2014 : 10:14:51      reply with quote



www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/11421936.Deluge_of_protests_for_Silsden_flood_barrier/

I have a problem with this article in the Keighley News because it's so obviously politically motivated


quote
The protests are being led by Val Carroll, of North Street, Silsden, who described the girders as an “abominable structure”.
quote
Coun Andrew Mallinson, who represents Silsden on Bradford Council, said many residents had expressed concern about the look of the structure.
VAL CARROLL
Some may be asking who is Val Carroll: she stood as the Labour candidate at the last Ward Councillor elections but is now apparently leading the protests about the floodgate. The pictures shown are of the structure and are not balanced to the environment. I suppose everyone of a political bent needs to make a point for publicity and to get one over on someone else.

COUN ANDREW MALLINSON
A Conservative Ward Councillor who beat Chris Atkinson by 12 votes at the last local election in May. He represents Silsden but hasn't attended a Silsden Town Council meeting since the 2012 local elections. A few of weeks ago Councillor Mallinson was pictured in the newspaper pointing at a mattress dumped in a layby on the dual carriageway. Unfortunately the mattress was in North Yorkshire and didn't get collected for another 2 weeks - it just goes to show what politicians will do for publicity.

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jonno
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21/08/2014 : 12:45:10      reply with quote


I'm really not that interested in whether we have a barrier or not, as long as it's not an eyesore it won't affect me.

I do take an interest in what our Councillors say in the press.

From the T&A:

Councillor O’ Dwyer, said: “People who live near the beck are all for the gates because it’s going to keep their properties dry.”

This is a half truth as it fails to acknowledge that there are people who live very close to the beck (just below the ford) who are opposed to the scheme because of concerns about the increased water levels in the beck as a result of the barrier.

Politicians and their answers eh?
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gazzer
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21/08/2014 : 13:12:59      reply with quote


this post has been edited 1 time(s)

quote
posted by jonno
because of concerns about the increased water levels in the beck as a result of the barrier.


But it will not increase(that could be measured) the level of the beck below the ford.Run off from house building upstream will put far more water through the beck. If using a public road, St John Street, as a relief channel is the only answer then it needs some serious money throwing at the problem.

And lets not forget it was in the papers 51 years ago that St John Street residents were complaining to Silsden UDC wanting something sorted
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jonno
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21/08/2014 : 14:27:27      reply with quote


I think you missed my point Gazzer.

As I said I'm taking a very selfish view and couldn't care much less about the effects of a barrier as long as it's not an eyesore.

The point I was making was that, whilst Peter has highlighted what he sees as some political maneuvering, one of our own Town Councillors is not above using a bit of spin in an interview.

There was a whole other thread about the actual pros and cons of the barrier that we could have discussed it in if we had the inclination.
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gazzer
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21/08/2014 : 15:56:15      reply with quote


quote
posted by Peter



COUN ANDREW MALLINSON
. A few of weeks ago Councillor Mallinson was pictured in the newspaper pointing at a mattress dumped in a layby on the dual carriageway. Unfortunately the mattress was in North Yorkshire and didn't get collected for another 2 weeks - it just goes to show what politicians will do for publicity.


He needs to have a look down that little road by the river bridge and see the fly tipping down there and the get the waste permits removed from Bfd Council and do us all a favour
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Mickyfinn
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21/08/2014 : 16:45:45      reply with quote


You were quite right to highlight what Cllr O'Dwyer said. As a St.John's Street resident of long standing I can categorically state that I & many of my neighbours have never supported the construction of this floodgate, & most residents agree with me that any flooding is almost certainly due to flash flooding from the Playing Fields. If this aspect of flooding was to be removed drains at the bottom of St.John's Street would most likely cope with any run-off from the ford. I have contacted BMDC & STC about this & can only hope that our viewpoint is listened too.
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Mickyfinn
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21/08/2014 : 16:57:02      reply with quote


Are you party to some inside information'gazzer'. How can you categorically state that the levels of flood water in the beck will not rise when the floodgate is closed. I am trying to ascertain from STC whether a professional flood risk assessment was ever carried out & if it was, did this assessment identify any higher level of floodwater at the ford & also below the weir when this floodgate is closed.
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Mickyfinn
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21/08/2014 : 18:26:44      reply with quote


Political points made by STC councillors in Keighley News article today:
"People who live near the beck are all for the gates because it's going to keep their properties dry". Cllr.O'Dwyer.
This statement is false. Where did he get this information from.
"There have been a number of occasions during the past year or two when people have been asking for sandbags because of flooding". Cllr.Naylor
This statement is false. No home down St.John's Street has had sandbags in place, there has been no flooding from the beck for many years, only very recently was there flooding & this was flash flooding from the playing fields.
Cllr.O'Dwyer says that some St.John's Street residents face problems getting home insurance for their homes due to flooding.
Really!! My home insurance has not been loaded in any way nor have I been refused insurance. I have got the same response from neighbours. However, with all this publicity, maybe we will now experience problems with insurance. Thank you guys.








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gazzer
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21/08/2014 : 18:54:21      reply with quote


quote
posted by Mickyfinn
Are you party to some inside information'gazzer'. How can you categorically state that the levels of flood water in the beck will not rise when the floodgate is closed. I am trying to ascertain from STC whether a professional flood risk assessment was ever carried out & if it was, did this assessment identify any higher level of floodwater at the ford & also below the weir when this floodgate is closed.
No inside information.If I get chance I might rig an experiment up using plastic gutter.
Another reason the barrier will not make a difference is that if it flooded bad in the past sand bags have been put on both sides of the ford without any noticable rise down stream.

I do think you are asking the wrong people, its the environment Agency you really need to speak to.Find out what there assessment covered. Ask them to put in writing that the barrier will not cause you problems. Then lets all get together and petition Bfd Met to sort out the park run off problem, which is the real problem
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Mickyfinn
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21/08/2014 : 19:00:16      reply with quote


I'm sorry Peter, but you just cant put such a one-sided post on this site about the article in the Keighley News concerning the floodgate construction. Of course Val Carroll & Andrew Mallinson are making political comments, but so are Cllrs.O'Dwyer & Naylor. I don't hold out much hope for a fair response when my correspondence to STC concerning increased risks of flooding at the rear of my property when the floodgate is closed & the blocked storm drain at the bottom of Mitchell Lane, is passed to councillors at the next council meeting. As I have said before it appears to be 'fait accompli'.
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gazzer
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21/08/2014 : 19:03:08      reply with quote


50 years ago

Silsden Council was severely criticised for flooding which occurred in parts of the town in July. There were proposals to level the sill at the St John Street side of the Stakes Beck ford.


www.cravenherald.co.uk/nostalgia/nostalgia_pick/10686836.From_the_archives/
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blob
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21/08/2014 : 19:38:01      reply with quote


I agree with gazzer's points. I doubt any investigation by the Environment Agency will have taken the poor drainage from the Park into account however.

The drainage from the Park must be sorted out by Bradford Council. The water should not even reach the road gully described in Mitchell Lane but be captured further up. Bradford Council have a duty of care not to let water off their land drain onto other peoples property.
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Mickyfinn
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21/08/2014 : 22:53:51      reply with quote


Gazzer, the statement 'there were proposals to level the sill at the St.John's Street side of Stakes Beck ford' is somewhat ambiguous. It could mean that the sill on the St.John's Street side was too high & therefore needed levelling to alleviate flooding on the Kirkgate side. By levelling the sill it possibly led to future flooding on the St.John's Street side. Maybe it was considered the lesser of the two evils in the Council's eyes.
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babba100
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22/08/2014 : 01:06:28      reply with quote


As bystander to this discussion, and putting politics aside and also admitting to a embarrassing level of ignorance when it comes to measuring the credit of flood defences....

There is no denying that a humongous steel 'girder' is 100% an eyesore and I am only assuming that there will be efforts made to disguise its giant shiny metal form from what is a gentle, beautiful and postcard-perfect scene of silsden ... thats just obvious .... right?

lets chop down some ancient tree's whilst we are at it and create a lumberjack type log run, that'll stop the floods ....
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Peter
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22/08/2014 : 10:47:28      reply with quote


www.keighleynews.co.uk/news/news_keighley/11422532.Deluge_of_protests_about_Silsden_flood_defence_barriers/
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tetleydrinker
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22/08/2014 : 19:52:45      reply with quote


This is turning into the WaterGate conspiracy
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grandad
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22/08/2014 : 20:07:20      reply with quote


If I am understanding Mickyfinn correctly, he is suggesting that if the water is controlled in such a way that it is contained in the course of the beck then it might flood his cellar?
And what he is saying is that the water should be allowed to escape from the beck to be allowed to run down St Johns St, so instead of just flooding his cellar it can flood the whole of his and everybody else's home completely; fron top to bottom.
that make no sense at all to me.
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grandad
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22/08/2014 : 20:58:21      reply with quote


If Val Carroll had been in London in the year of 1892 and seen the construction being erected across the river Thames (See photo below) no doubt she would have rushed to castigate the persons responsible for erecting such an "abominable structure" But just like the flood gate being erected on St Johns street, premature judgement of an ugly duckling is shown to be wildly out of place when the swan is completed.




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victor
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23/08/2014 : 08:59:10      reply with quote


Are we now getting a new BRIDGE then.
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tetleydrinker
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23/08/2014 : 09:40:04      reply with quote


Grandad,

I would have thought that the good people of Victorian London were given a chance to view the designs and plans for Tower bridge before the construction started and it would appear that it did have its "knockers" , heres a couple of quotes from the ever reliable Wikipedia,

Although the bridge is an undoubted landmark, professional commentators in the early 20th century were critical of its aesthetics. "It represents the vice of tawdriness and pretentiousness, and of falsification of the actual facts of the structure", wrote H. H. Statham, while Frank Brangwyn stated that "A more absurd structure than the Tower Bridge was never thrown across a strategic river"

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Mickyfinn
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23/08/2014 : 11:45:57      reply with quote


Grandad, you have clearly not understood anything I have previously said in my posts on this subject in another thread that is now closed. I have absolutely no intention of going through it all again. However, I can tell you that some of the cottages down St.John's Street do not have cellars, they have ground floor kitchens that are partially below street level at their frontages. These kitchens could only be flooded through their doors at the beck side if their retaining walls were breached.
solid wood flooring

grandad
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23/08/2014 : 12:15:17      reply with quote


Tetleydrinker, your post just goes to prove my point, the knockers were wrong!
I am sure nobody would suggest Tower Bridge should be pulled down now.

Mickyfinn, So what are you complaining about, if the only way they can be flooded is for their walls to be breached? Or are you suggesting that the water not allowed to spill out and run down St Johns Street could breach the wall?
Which would be a bit academic if it was already coming in through the front doors.
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midway
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23/08/2014 : 12:36:58      reply with quote


Mickyfinn you have prob' already got this doc'but just in case.https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/riverside-ownership-rights-and-responsibilities
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gazzer
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23/08/2014 : 12:56:56      reply with quote


quote
posted by Mickyfinn
Grandad, you have clearly not understood anything I have previously said in my posts on this subject in another thread that is now closed. I have absolutely no intention of going through it all again. However, I can tell you that some of the cottages down St.John's Street do not have cellars, they have ground floor kitchens that are partially below street level at their frontages. These kitchens could only be flooded through their doors at the beck side if their retaining walls were breached.
Water will always find its own level so uless the walls on the St John Street are waterproof it will eventually find its way in.

I am a bit confused now because, and I am not saying you do not have a worry, but you seem to suggest the water should be allowed to spill down St John Street from the ford to protect the rear of the property, but should not run down the street from the park
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Mickyfinn
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23/08/2014 : 13:03:00      reply with quote


Many thanks 'midway', interesting document. Food for thought.
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skippy
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23/08/2014 : 14:46:20      reply with quote


mickyfinn I don't know how old you are but its not that long since that I had skips down at the shop that is now the hairdressers for all the contents of their cellar(CARPET SHOP) this was caused by the beck flooding, fact not fiction.i still have all the official paperwork if you do not belive. I don't intend to get in to any political arguments on here .
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gazzer
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23/08/2014 : 15:12:51      reply with quote


Mickeyfinn has lived there for over 20 years and has justifiable concerns about front and back St John Street.
The way forward can only be a meeting between Bradford Council, Silsden Town Counci,The Environment Agency and residents of St John Street.

Carroll,Mallinson,myself and Uncle Tom Cobley can all have opinions but we can only support measures to prevent flooding whatever the cause.

As I said before, in flood conditions Stakes Beck cannot accommodate any more run off from increased concreting over green fields.
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grandad
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23/08/2014 : 15:39:06      reply with quote


Then maybe he should have bought a house on North Street like is mate, she will not be bothered if St Johns Street floods, all she wants to do is make mischief.
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Peter
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23/08/2014 : 16:00:01      reply with quote


From the Environmental Agency document (page 5 and 6)
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/297423/LIT_7114_c70612.pdf

Where do you stand on this point Mickyfinn?

Your rights (as owner of a property backing onto a watercourse)

If your land boundary is next to a watercourse it is assumed you own the land up to the centre of the watercourse, unless it is owned by someone else.

You should keep the banks clear of anything that could cause an obstruction and increase flood risk, either on your land or downstream if it is washed away. You are responsible for maintaining the bed and banks of the watercourse and the trees and shrubs growing on the banks.


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grandad
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23/08/2014 : 16:17:13      reply with quote


Nice one Peter!
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Mickyfinn
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23/08/2014 : 16:31:41      reply with quote


Peter & granddad, sorry to disappoint you guys but the top four cottages are kept clear of vegetation etc. The photo shows the situation further down the beck. I regularly get down into the beck to clear my bit.
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Mickyfinn
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23/08/2014 : 16:43:49      reply with quote


Skippy, if my memory serves me correctly the Carpet Shop cellar was flooded by way of a manhole under the cellar flooring. Apparently they were unaware of its existence.
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paperclip
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23/08/2014 : 17:38:25      reply with quote


this post has been edited 1 time(s)

Skippy is right not to get into "political" argument here. It's a pity Peter interpreted the KN article that way when he opened this thread. He has strong local views and loyalties and it must be almost impossible to maintain a web masters measured neutrality sometimes.

Knowing Val Caroll she'll have sent her flood barrier letter the paper from a purely personal Silsden resident standpoint. Nothing to do with Labour.(I'd know). KN picked up the issue (local conflict is always news) and did a snappy headline job ( a 'deluge' of opposition - really?). To be fair they also printed representative comments from others to make a balanced piece.

It may have been a bit unwise to name/accuse 2 people one disagrees/dislikes of being "political" and imply everyone else quoted is above all that.

STC does a great job but a significant number of people obviously feel that its consultation and information procedures could be better. There are ways to sort this out. Experienced advice would help. But not from me. I'm very "political" Aaaagh!
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Mickyfinn
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23/08/2014 : 17:51:26      reply with quote


Gazzer, I totally agree with your last post. Hopefully, my correspondence with STC will be passed to councillors at their September meeting,and if so, I am hopeful that I might get an assurance that a professional flood risk assessment was undertaken & that this assessment did not consider that there was an increased risk of flooding to properties immediately below the weir with the gate in place during extreme flood conditions. If I do get this reassurance I will be satisfied, if not, then I will have to get in contact with the Environment Agency & see where this takes me. As for flash flooding from the Playing Fields the ball is now in STC's court, it is up to them to argue with BMDC that BMDC has a duty of care with regard to the drain at the bottom of Mitchell Lane, which BMDC insists is located in an unadopted bridleway & not their responsibility. In my opinion serious flooding at the bottom of St.John's Street is caused by a combination of run-off from the ford area & by flash flooding from the Playing Fields. I would suggest that the latter is by far the greater of the two sources of flooding.
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Peter
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23/08/2014 : 18:28:36      reply with quote


quote
posted by grandad
Nice one Peter!
I was not out to score points, just asking the question. For all I knew the beck course is maintained by the Environment Agency, I just happened to have taken the recent picture from Clog Bridge which shows some vegetation along the beck. In the event of a flood I don't suppose this will cause to much problem to a large amount of water, but it won't help either.
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gazzer
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23/08/2014 : 19:21:22      reply with quote


With that picture the people downstream of Mickeyfinn need informing of their responsibility because the vegetation will slow the flow away.

Off topic, the leaflet defines who should get rid of the Japanese Knotweed growing in various places the full length of the bec
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