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Topic : THINKING OF GOING to Reg and Appeals Meeting - 31 May 2018 (school)

Peter
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24/05/2018 : 15:28:40      reply with quote




Reg and Appeals Meeting

There is some confusion evident regarding the procedure and what is available (time) to make the case to the panel regarding concerns of residents reference the new school. (Apologies if you are already completely familiar with how the process works).

Members of public wishing to attend should arrive 30 mins before meeting start time and register with the (secretary) agenda contact Sheila Farnhill outside the meeting room if they wish to speak.

Speaking time; a bell will be sounded at expiry of time, be that at minute interval (5mins divided by persons wishing to speak) or the full 5mins.

Whilst you wait outside the room the Councillors on the panel will be attending a 30mins + briefing session from the officers (in private) explaining the proposals put forward.

The councillors on the panel should have read all the information put on the application, comments, objections etc. however they usually rely on the information presented by the council officers, who in turn relies on the information provided by the developerís agent or developer.

The meeting is opened by the chair and introductions of the panel and officers are made.

- The officer supported by the Assistant Director will then present the case (power point presentation)usually supported by a series of photographs (on large TV screen) illustrating the situation for example street scene with no vehicles, neighbouring streets, existing land etc. These photos are often taken from the Design and Access statement, but new ones sometimes appear.

- The officer should then go through in summary the objections. Any late objections not making the presentation pack should be read out to the panel, however these are sometimes ignored, but they can be requested. There is no time limit on the officers presentation and often the officer will have verbal supporting prompts from the Assistant Director.

The councillors on the panel then (should) question the officer and/or seek points of clarification

The panel can ask further questions dependant on the responses given to their questions.

The chair then invites the objectors or councillors who wish to speak. (Order of speaking at discretion of the chairperson)

Speaking time;

- Each Ward Councillor is allowed 5mins if they desire (to be democratic 90 ward councillors in CBMDC each ward has 3 councillors could be Labour, Conservative, Ind/Liberal etc. = 15 mins. (Reg & Appeal Panel consists of 2 Conservative, 4 Labour and 1 Liberal. Any decision made should be non-political.)

- Town/Parish Councillors have 5mins if they desire either individual or shared.

- Objectors to the proposal have 5mins either 1 person or 5mins split between the number of objectors

- Note it is obviously beneficial for all the above to have discussed together their presentation beforehand to avoid duplication or conflicts in the short presentation time available

The officer (Mr Currie or nominee) will then answer or give reasoning against the issues raised by the objector and/or councillors, there is no time limit on his replies.

Councillors on the panel may then raise issues from the points that have been put forward and ask further questions for clarification from the officer or objectors again there is no time restriction

Supporters (Applicant) of the proposal then have 5 mins (this is usually the developer or his/her agent, extra time can be added if he/she brings along their specialist adviser (for example flood expert) for supporting evidence. In some cases a member of the public may request to speak supporting the proposal. In which case the 5mins will be divided.

Councillors can then question the applicant and the officers further, on conclusion of their speaking time.

One councillor or the chair will make a proposal and look for a seconder, a vote is then taken. The chair then announces the resultant decision could be Recommend Approval, Refused, Approved with Additional Conditions, Deferred decision pending further investigations and evidence to be provided.

(Note from the pack on this application it is recommending approval with a limited number of conditions or Refusal, (Refer 9.OPTIONS Page 4 OF PUBLIC DOCUMENT PACK) however additional conditions can be added subject to agreement and advice of the Assistant Director)


SUMMARY

With the number of public objections (mainly to the access and egress route) it is important that as many members of the public attend the Meeting as possible. However, members of the public will only be allowed to speak for 5 mins in total, so it is very important to nominate a spokesperson to represent your views. It is also important NOT to contradict any other objections put forward by other speakers.

Practice beforehand 5 minutes go by VERY quickly.

Download this document
news.silsden.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Reg-and-Appeals-Meeting-31st-May-2018.pdf


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victor
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24/05/2018 : 19:37:18      reply with quote


Peter as I understand it the panel will meet in Bradford, then go on a site visit, then return to Bradford for the meeting. I am not able to go myself but anyone who is should find out the time when the meeting will start after the site visit. Good luck to all who go but I think it is a done deal.
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Corky Yorky
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25/05/2018 : 09:31:35      reply with quote


Peter, sorry to say but I think itís about time this topic was closed.

We have wasted enough of our lives on this subject; We should probably accept that we can do nothing and despite all the questions put forward on this site, or otherwise, none appear to have been answered, either in part or full, by Bradford or its counterparts.

Furthermore it would appear that our Town Council have no real interest in surging the power of the community to get more active on this school proposal. But on the other hand they appear to not have any real jurisdiction to get answers from Bradford.

In addition I would say Cllr Naylor, has not been forthcoming enough. In fact, like the TC, I would say he has been deliberately quiet regarding the School proposal. I think a lot more is known than he is letting on. It was interesting that he only addressed the issue of the housing to the north of the school at the pointless TC hearing. He also kept low, sat to the side and only answered when asked. One would have thought that being a Cllr in his position he would have wanted to be more of a prominent figure; rather like he tries to be every month or so in the papers for lesser issues to promote himself, but no, it would appear he already knew about the housing and the roads.
I am of the understanding, by the Bradford Architects, that the school can only be built on existing figures of school pupils; so why was Cllr Naylor happy to advocate that the school should be built because of the housing to the north and allow expansion to accommodate an increase of pupils? You should not be able to argue a case on ifs, buts and whens. Planning proposals should only legally be done on current criteria. Didnít he also let us know, some time earlier, on the quiet, about the fact that there will be no Silsden bypass, only piecemeal approach to any road? I am led to believe that Cllr Naylor does not want a bypass on his side of town. Is it because he lives on that side of Town? Is this at all contrary to what we already understood?

These are just my thoughts and points of view? If you disagree with them fine, maybe you have something more to say, or different to say.

I think we have been Ďsoldí and nothing we say will have influence to persuade otherwise.

I had a stroll around the footpaths that surround Addingham Primary the other day. Looking across to the school, it was charming to see the beautiful grass play areas, with trees and shrubs. A class of children were been taught whilst sat on the grass enjoying the sun. Guess what these children looked quite safe and there was no chainlink mesh fences in site. The proposal for Silsdenís new school will see two such fences about 2.5m in height and the children will have no access to unsupervised grassed areas, trees or shrubs, only tarmac and safety surfacing to play on.
One of the main reasons for having the new school was to have access to grassed areas, yet this has been totally denied for them in this new proposal. The toddlers wonít even have a nature area consisting of paths, trees, planting, sand, soil and boardwalks etcetera, which they currently have.
Is such the proposed access/egress that it will have significant affects throughout the whole of Silsden. Should my children go to the school, I hope not, I like many others will park nearer the coop, causing havoc, and walk the rest of the way. I think ultimately this is what Bradford want, because then they will have an excuse to put upon us more parking restrictions.

Interestingly, yet again, another important planning meeting during the holidays, when many folk could not possibly attend, because, like me will be looking after children.

Like I have always said, I am not against development and a new school, as long as its carefully planned to meet the needs of the community and this also means future proofing it, which I acknowledge. However it should not have a significant environmental impact that affects the community at large, as I understand this proposal will have.

Are we powerless?

I look forward to all your deliberations and criticisms.

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ginjo
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25/05/2018 : 11:01:20      reply with quote


why is this meeting not being held in Silsden town hall, such a big issue for the town it seems ludicrous that people are expected to go to Bradford, I wonder whether any of Silsden ward councillors or town council asked if this would be possible, they would get a better turn out from the public.At least its in school holidays so a lot of people will be off work and can take their kids for a day out(only joking).
I fear hardly anyone knows about this apart from the people who look at silsden net, there has been nothing on the silsden news and silsden buzz sites on facebook, maybe an idea for someone to post about it on there, a lot more people look at those sites, probably too late now but just a thought.
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Pennypeck
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25/05/2018 : 11:35:57      reply with quote


I wonder whether Corky Yorky ever considered becoming a Career Diplomat?
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gazzer
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25/05/2018 : 15:04:27      reply with quote


My first thought was that the decision will be made in the 30min closed door meeting. Then I remembered the decision has already been made and this meeting just rubber stamps it and the councillors will pick up extra expenses for turning up
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ginjo
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25/05/2018 : 15:47:27      reply with quote


there is a link from facebook silsden buzz now to an article in this weeks Keighley news, hopefully more people will take notice now.Hope as many people as possible go to the meeting, could do with several coach loads!
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gazzer
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25/05/2018 : 16:11:12      reply with quote


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ginjo
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25/05/2018 : 16:22:33      reply with quote


the Keighley news article does not appear to mention the one way system, I wonder why?!!!
I think that is possibly the thing that will cause the most disruption for everyone, anyone wanting to drive on from Silsden to Addingham or Ilkley after dropping their kids off will have to go all the way round the one way to Howden road and queue at Clog Bridge to go back up Bolton road how long will that add to their journey? People need to be aware of this.
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Corky Yorky
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25/05/2018 : 17:43:48      reply with quote


this post has been edited 2 time(s)

quote
posted by gazzer
quote
posted by Corky Yorky


In addition I would say Cllr Naylor, has not been forthcoming enough. In fact, like the TC, I would say he has been deliberately quiet regarding the School proposal.


www.keighleynews.co.uk/news/16250821.New_Silsden_school_will_be_a_traffic_nightmare_____politicians/
Ha...did he read my article here before this was published?
..unfortunately Cllr Naylorís views appear after the horse has bolted!!!...too little too late!
Itís another monthly publicity stunt.
If he was truly against the school proposal he should have had the foresight to see that championing the site as the most viable option is actually not the most viable site for our community! But then it doesnít really affect him..he doesnít really live in Silsden and have to put up with the shitty paths, congested roads and crappy parking facilities etcetera.
Ironically, i believe that very little of the congestion in Silsden is actually the result of the current schools because the impact is spread over many streets and access points; Whilst the new school proposal i believe will actually generate more traffic and cause more traffic issues wider over Silsden because the traffic will be streamlined and more folk will use their cars. "The council admits that because the school site is located at the edge of Silsden, most pupils are likely to travel to school by car.Ē Council happy to admit the problems they will cause and yet ultimately they will happily let it go through planning with the problems. If the planning board saw any sense they should boot this out. I hold no hope whatsoever.
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gazzer
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25/05/2018 : 18:19:01      reply with quote


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Corky Yorky
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25/05/2018 : 20:35:16      reply with quote


this post has been edited 4 time(s)

Gazzer..i suggested it, because Silsden Park is the crappiest park in BD20. Even many of Keighleys parks are far superior to Silsdenís.
What i suggested was a pefectly good solution, as i also suggested, but you failed to mention in your arrogance, was to build a new park on the Hothfield site and to retain some of Silsdens park better facilities, (Bowling green, Tennis courts and some green/play space) so that Silsden had two top quality Parks that could be maintained easily and offer different facilities.
Without severe funding Sisden Park in a couple of years will no longer be a parkí fit for useí to quote!
In fact even as we speak i would say i have seen better recreation grounds. The Park name should be dropped.
Gazzer i suggest you concentrate on what you know best..because that stab is low..very low!
i thought better of you. Not constructive criticism!

We already donít have use of a third of the park because it has been closed off for nearly a year now. That work should have taken no more than 6-8 weeks in total. Whats the TC doing about it?
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gazzer
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25/05/2018 : 20:42:01      reply with quote


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Corky Yorky
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25/05/2018 : 20:51:47      reply with quote


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Gazzer your way off the mark!. If the school was more central, like the Park is, more people would actually walk to it.
Thus less car park, drop off needed. The school could be designed so that teachers and staff could actually park on top of the school, as their is a steep embankment at the top of the site which could be naturally used. without the need to create additional space for parking, In effect a multistorey school!
Think outside the box and you will find some answers?
The school would be designed in accordance with the site, not simply plonked on it like the current proposal.
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Peter
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25/05/2018 : 22:43:01      reply with quote


Interesting as all this is, discussing anything on this forum will not change anything. The reason for this topic was to alert anyone going to the meeting as to what to expect and how to organise yourselves to be effective. The odds of anything but approval for the new school and where its build are heavily stacked against us but that should not prevent us from getting the best of a bad job. The Highways solution for this project seems to be to do as little as possible, but it's very important they are not allowed to impose their solution without our agreement - we have to live here.

The place to express your views is on the planning portal. How you can accuse Ward Councillors and our Town Council of doing nothing is beyond me, when so very few people attend a council meeting to see for themselves what our (unpaid councilors) do.

Facebook warriors? This site gets 2000 page hits / day, everyday. If the topic of the day is the weather (snow) or when the gas supply will come back on then it gets in excess of 6000 page hits / day. The information on this forum goes back to 2003 - try finding a subject on Facebook that old!

All the information about the school is on this site, you just have to look and read.

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Corky Yorky
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26/05/2018 : 09:06:52      reply with quote


quote
posted by Peter
How you can accuse Ward Councillors and our Town Council of doing nothing is beyond me, when so very few people attend a council meeting to see for themselves what our (unpaid councilors) do.

Peter, thatís ridiculously generalistic, and misleading to say the least of you....nobody has said that. My views on this thread are directed at the school.
I express my views on experience, visible evidence and widely available evidence, some of it from here.
Your generalistic statement only feeds to mislead!

As you know I have probably attended TC meetings quite a lot...so yes i have seen what they do. I have also seen what they donít do. I also know that they do a lot more than what is visible at the meetings.
Further to my point, to my knowledge i have never seen nor been at a TC meeting when Adrian Naylor has been present. In fact it would be interesting to know when someone actually saw Cllr Naylor in Silsden? Because i calculate i have only seen him about four times (at the co-op) in excess of ten years. Never seen him on the pavement.

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Pennypeck
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26/05/2018 : 11:04:47      reply with quote


Corky Yorky, I have attended STC main meetings regularly since I retired, which is about three years ago. I havenít missed many but during that time I only recall your attendance on two occasions. It could be that you were in attendance but I didnít know who you were until you disgraced yourself at one of the meetings and brought to heel by the then Chairman, after which you left the meeting. Conversely, any time Councillor Naylor was absent when I was there, the clerk announced the reason, which was predominantly for reasons of him attending other BMDC meetings or business, rightly his priority. It is not uncommon for him to arrive a little late, coming straight from Bradford. He knows how the Bradford machine works and seems well-connected within BMDC. Accordingly, he is regularly consulted by Councillors and Clerk within the STC meetings.
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Corky Yorky
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26/05/2018 : 12:25:49      reply with quote


this post has been edited 1 time(s)

quote
posted by Pennypeck
Corky Yorky, I have attended STC main meetings regularly since I retired, which is about three years ago. I havenít missed many but during that time I only recall your attendance on two occasions. It could be that you were in attendance but I didnít know who you were until you disgraced yourself at one of the meetings and brought to heel by the then Chairman, after which you left the meeting. Conversely, any time Councillor Naylor was absent when I was there, the clerk announced the reason, which was predominantly for reasons of him attending other BMDC meetings or business, rightly his priority. It is not uncommon for him to arrive a little late, coming straight from Bradford. He knows how the Bradford machine works and seems well-connected within BMDC. Accordingly, he is regularly consulted by Councillors and Clerk within the STC meetings.
That is a very low stab PennyPeck. I have never been disgraced by the TC. I have been asked to keep quiet for speaking out of turn...but that was because the TC were going down a line of which they knew nothing about; but i did as professional. I felt at the time that it was appropriate to use my knowledge to help the TC but they unwisely decided otherwise. Who disgraced who? In my opinion if there is someone who is knowledgeable on a particular subject and was in a position to help others; i.e.. the whole of Silsden, then it might be wise to use that experience as it presents itself at no cost!

Like wise the TC at the pointless School meeting in the Town Hall, The chair Person disgraced themselves due to there own attitude. This was seen by everyone there and everyone looked shocked by it. Remember?

I havent made up those comments about Cllr Naylor. If ever i have left before close of the TC, then Cllr Naylor must have turned up whilst everyone else was walking out.
Further to your point of me leaving..i leave early because i have childen to look after, and for no other reason. That is not a sin and should be applauded that as a parent i also manage my time to have an interest in local issues.
Clearly you support other Cllrs...(a protectionist), but that is not my perception or experiences as a member of the public.
Maybe you should add to the discussion more rather than attack someone who makes a discussion.



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midway
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26/05/2018 : 14:32:35      reply with quote


I think we have gone off topic. But to put the record straight, Councillor Naylor has only missed one Council meeting in the last twelve month.
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victor
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26/05/2018 : 15:42:16      reply with quote


Sorry corky but I have been to five or six meetings in the past two years and councillor Naylor only missed one. This reminds me of when Middleway meadows where up for planning, there was a meeting in the park and instead of everyone objecting together some of them where only looking after there own interest. So stop having a go at each other and work together, it doesn't matter if Councillor Naylor was not so strongly against it before he is now.
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Corky Yorky
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27/05/2018 : 13:49:25      reply with quote


Midway & Victor...Fair enough you have different experiences! Will take that on board!
Nice to see you contributing seriously.
Your viewpoints are as good as mine.
solid wood flooring

midway
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27/05/2018 : 15:13:56      reply with quote


Thank you Corky Yorky for your consideration, think what we could do if we all worked together.
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hat
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31/05/2018 : 13:15:01      reply with quote


no news yet?
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Pennypeck
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31/05/2018 : 16:07:05      reply with quote


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Pennypeck
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31/05/2018 : 16:19:52      reply with quote


quote
posted by Pennypeck
I attended the BMDC meeting today as an observer. After all the noise made over many months I was both surprised and disappointed to find myself being the only non-Councillor in attendance, at least with respect to Silsden residents.

Town Councillor O'Dwyer and Town/Ward Councillor Whitaker made excellent presentations majoring on unsatisfactory traffic plans with respect to the proposed approach and exit roads, besides the on-site traffic arrangements. Also, a well-timed email sent from Town/Ward Councillor Naylor over the weekend, who was unable to attend, was read out.

Perhaps not surprisingly, the application was approved. However, the Silsden Councillors made a strong enough representation for some committee members to insist on a list of conditions greater than those normally seen, by requesting that more of the 'vague' items normally solidified at build time be more specific from the outset. Several more pertinent questions and actions were asked of the officers by the committee members after the Silsden presentations than before them.

My perception was that the Officers were not entirely in their comfort zones as the hearing proceeded and it became increasingly apparent that the traffic and related issues were becoming dominant. Then, out of the blue, one Officer announced that a new, unrelated application had recently been received and validated today, for a "Proposed Enabling Road to serve the New School and Residential Development". The application bears the same agent's name that attended an STC meeting, perhaps a couple of years ago with respect to a proposed development just above Tannery Corner, which I believe was approved.

You might want to look at new application 18/02201/MAF. It might be the start of the Silsden bypass!


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victor
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31/05/2018 : 17:07:14      reply with quote


Thanks Pennypeck I would have been there but I am in Scotland. Good news or bad I don't know, the plans don't show if the exit is still Middleway or if access will still be from Hawber cote lane as well as the new road. And what about 500 more houses, we need more information.
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victor
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31/05/2018 : 18:55:05      reply with quote


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Having looked at it again the new road is just an additional way in and out, they estimate that only 100 cars will come in and then go out that way, (4.5 in the Traffic statement). That dose not make up for the children from the new houses.
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hat
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31/05/2018 : 20:49:12      reply with quote


I get the feeling that was thrown together as a belt & braces in case the school app got thrown out on access issues.
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victor
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01/06/2018 : 10:13:40      reply with quote


It looks like the road will join Bolton road about 80 to 100 metres above Brown Bank lane and go across to Hawber lane.
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ginjo
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01/06/2018 : 11:41:54      reply with quote


isn't that where the eastern bypass that was proposed years ago was supposed to start?
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Peter
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01/06/2018 : 12:35:19      reply with quote


quote
posted by ginjo
isn't that where the eastern bypass that was proposed years ago was supposed to start?
No, this map shows the original proposed route for the bypass (2005 revised UDP document)



There is a phase II to the proposed "enabling road" which would join Hawber Lane, which is along the line the Bypass would take. The Bypass was planned to join Bolton Road further up but this would make two junctions fairly close together, so perhaps the plan is now to divert the bypass route to join the "enabling road" The enabling road will open up Banklands for 500 houses to be build.

The Bypass has to cross the canal and will be very expensive to build - will it ever be built?

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victor
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02/06/2018 : 20:57:25      reply with quote


Pennypeck do you think the councillors where influenced by the new application and if so could it be seen as manipulation by the officers. When you look at the application it will have no impact on the number of cars which will use Hawber cote lane and Middleway, the only effect will be when the school numbers go up to 10000, and a lot of them children from the new houses. I wonder if John Grogan will think like me that it could be construed as connivence by the planners.
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Pennypeck
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03/06/2018 : 14:18:52      reply with quote


I wouldn't go as far as to say that anything underhand was going on because I don't know. However, when the announcement was made about the new application and given the discussion up to that point being traffic centered, it seemed like a "get out of jail free" card might have been played, a situation perhaps exacerbated by the fact that the application and validation dates were identical (perhaps they usually are) and that it was announced in the meeting that the application was being validated that day, when in fact it had been validated a few days earlier according to the documents. However, none of these seem like show-stoppers to me. I did say in my post further up that it was announced as an unrelated application and it was also said that it was an application that could stand up on its own merits. Whilst it was mentioned a second time, briefly, further downstream, there was no further discussion about the two applications being linked, in a manner that might influence the business at hand. In fact the school discussion lasted about 90 minutes (estimate), being the only major item on the agenda. Hope this clarifies.
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victor
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03/06/2018 : 15:03:18      reply with quote


Thank you Pennypeck I think it smells a bit but not enough to say it was a set up.
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Corky Yorky
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05/06/2018 : 20:57:54      reply with quote


Victor..iím i agreeance with you!
There will be NO impact on reducing the numbers at all from the original proposed access/egress roads.
It is only for the new housing!
You would not drive all that way up Bolton rd, and not turn right at Dale view!
To my understanding from the current pupil data that was released no one from north Silsden/Addingham Moorside area going presently to Silsden School either. Most pupils from outside the Silsden area come from Riddlesden, Keighley, Utley or Eastburn!

It seems rather appropriate to name the application: Proposed enabling road to serve the proposed new school..... (and residential development | Land East Of Bolton Road Silsden West Yorkshire) and it seemed rather appropriate that it was put forward earlier the same day, witout any prior knowledge.

I canít see how a proper connection, other than a service road, be of use to the school, as the traffic ultimately would end on the one way system. So if anything, traffic coming in would increase numbers going out towards Clog Bridge.
Thus the connecting road in my eyes can only serve as a way out from the school, but that would mean traffic coming out higher up Bolton Road, only for it then to increase traffic on the way into to Silsden.

All very Bizarre!!
So this enabling road has in my eyes being named to mislead the school proposal.

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gazzer
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01/10/2018 : 15:08:52      reply with quote


this post has been edited 2 time(s)

quote
posted by Pennypeck
quote
posted by Pennypeck
I attended the BMDC meeting today as an observer.

My perception was that the Officers were not entirely in their comfort zones as the hearing proceeded and it became increasingly apparent that the traffic and related issues were becoming dominant. Then, out of the blue, one Officer announced that a new, unrelated application had recently been received and validated today, for a "Proposed Enabling Road to serve the New School and Residential Development".



Serious Breach of procedure????
No new information can be produced at the stage where members are in discussion.



"A Planning Officer will introduce each application by describing the proposed development, the recommendation and giving a short presentation, drawing attention to the issues contained in the written report and adding any additional late information.

Ward Councillors and/or a representative of any relevant Parish or Town Council may then address the Planning Panel/Committee on behalf of objectors, the applicant or any other interested party.

One representative of the objector(s) and the applicant/supporter(s) may then be invited to speak for five minutes each.

It is necessary to limit the time allowed for public speaking in order to ensure that each application is dealt with consistently and fairly and that the committee runs smoothly. The Chair may agree in exceptional circumstances however to extend the time allowed by parties to speak. In such cases the Chair will inform the speakers when introducing the item.

The Chair will not normally allow(members of the public) to make additional points even in response to those raised by other parties nor will speakers be questioned by Councillors or Officers.

The Planning Officers will answer any questions of clarification.

Members of the Panel/Committee will then debate the item and resolve to approve, refuse or defer until later in the day or a future date for further information, legal advice or a site visit.

Please note that you will not be permitted to table or circulate any documentation to the Members of the Committee/Panel other than, if you are permitted to speak, no more than four photographs to illustrate the points you are making. If possible these should be submitted to the relevant planning officer and the committee officer at least 24 hours prior to the meeting."
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